Marie Claire South Africa: The Orient Express

No, I just think a lot of this is regionally based vernacular. Context also plays a heavy part. 

I agree with “Asian” meaning someone whose ancestors originated in the continent of Asia, but unfortunately Asia is home to people of different races, the two most dominant being Indian or South Asian, and East Asian, which is known as Oriental in certain English vernaculars. I’ve also met South Asians who hate being termed “Indians,” because it implies that India is not a part of Asia.

Pulling the eyes is never appropriate, I agree with you. However, that’s not what this model is doing. They’ve done their best to create an illusion with make up that evokes Asian aesthetics, but not mockingly. I believe that context and intent are very important in differentiating if something is derogatory or not.
I’d also like to get an understanding of how many people in this thread are Eastern Asian and how many are not, because in my personal experience, I find that Caucasians are more upset by these representations of “Orientalism” than Eastern Asians ever are about it.

Hmm. I think it’s very interesting that we, an Eastern Asian woman and a black woman, are having this discussion about an editorial featuring a black model in Oriental clothes. I’m using the term Oriental here because I think this editorial is clearly referencing the western fantasy of the East back in the 1800s. So I suppose, I’d like to know why exactly you find this editorial offensive? 

I also agree with your race vs. nationality point. However, I find this point a little hazy to navigate, since so much of nationality is tied up with race. Or rather, race and culture and nationality are 3 very heavily intertwined ideas that affect each other, especially since nationality itself is a relatively modern concept that only really took force in the beginning of the 1900s in Europe, as a way for nation states to identify themselves as, well, themselves, distinct from their neighbors, who they were strongly alike racially. Which then leads to WWI, the Serbians wanting a nation separate for their particular race. Which I suppose would then tie in with Hitler’s claim of the Aryan “superior” race, and so on and so forth. 
I suppose what I’m trying to say is that the idea of ethnicity as separate from nationality is an even more modern concept, now that geographical mobility is such a commonality. Especially in the United States, which is a melting pot of different cultures, having absorbed immigrants from practically every corner of the world, we now have to think about people belonging to distinct ethnic groups but categorized under a different nationality. It’s very hard to tell the different between an African American or an African immigrant, and likewise between an Asian American growing up in the States or an Asian visiting from China or Korea or Japan. One question might be, does it matter? Unfortunately, I think it does. Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese people are fiercely “proud” (personally, I think the word is “arrogant”) of their cultures, and we tend to view our American counterparts are sort of “watered down” versions. Asian Americans tend to lose ties with the original culture with each generation, such as the ability to speak or write in the native language, the ability to hold chopsticks, so on and so forth. So in this case, race and nationality thus become 2 very different things. 

except that race and nationality have ALWAYS been separate entities.  we’re just only now recognizing that because of the geographical mobility you mentioned. i’m a black woman from Trinidad living in the US, and I’m routinely categorized as African American. it frustrates me that I always have to point out the inaccuracy, because I’m not an american, and therefore cannot be “african american”. additionally, i have never understood the reasoning behind adding ethnic tags to a nationalist identity. if you were born in the US, you’re american. why do you need to distinguish your race? doesn’t that just feed into the us vs. them mentality?

Most Russians don’t consider themselves to be Asian.  Self-identification is a big part of racial/ethnic identity.  Also, the majority of the Russian population is centered in the western part of the country.

But Russian attitudes toward racial identity ARE fascinating.  The most interesting class I ever took was “Race and Ethnicity in the Russian Empire.”  Man, that country has been amazing at creating a shitload of ethnic labels for groups of people that all “look the same” to outsiders.  And then attaching all kinds of binding laws and restrictions to the labels. 

Definitely allowed! I’m just curious about how you see it, it’s very refreshing to get the POV of a non-Caucasian and non-Asian on this matter!

That never happens to me! But then I’m also a very non-Asian sort of Asian (my tastes and style all run more western), so it is possible that I myself don’t invite that sort of comparison. Not that I’m assuming that you are visibly overflowing with an eastern aura. Maybe you’re just a normal person who happens to be of Asian descent. In all likelihood you are. I just meant that I’m so very loud and obnoxious that people don’t make that connection with me, so I never hear anything like that. 

So it’s very possible that as a result of my own personality, I’m oblivious to the stereotyping that a lot of other Asian women receive. I will say though I am indignant at the prevalent “Yellow Fever” or “Asian fetish” I’ve noticed among many white and black men, due to their conception of Asian woman as exotic compared to women of their own race as well as the idea that Asian women are more submissive. I also hate that white people in Taiwan (where I live) seem to automatically assume that Taiwanese women will fall head over heels for them because they are white. Sadly, this last thing is very true, and it makes me very ashamed to be a Taiwanese woman at times. But the problem here is that these Taiwanese girls don’t see this as a problem, that they are helping to perpetuate stereotypes about themselves that are NOT FLATTERING. 

I do hate it when white people try to speak Japanese or Chinese (badly) to me in an attempt to impress me. Please, I speak English, and you don’t speak my language. It’s not even a genuine “I’m learning a foreign language and would appreciate the opportunity to practice,” it’s more “look, aren’t you flattered I know how to say hello in Asian?”

So I guess I’m trying to say that I don’t mind the more flattering depictions of Orientalism in which the East (Near or Far) is depicted as beautiful and exotic, because it derives from the culture of a past era in which Europe was beginning to venture into what was unknown territory to them. I DON’T appreciate the resulting conclusion that Asians, male or female, are subservient to the West though. However, all in all, I understand that all this is a result of western power at the time of the West’s exploration into the East, mostly industrially, and that Orientalism is a concept that began and belongs to that era, just as we appreciate art depicting rape scenes from mythology painted during the Renaissance era. Does that mean we condone rape? No, it just means we’re paying an homage to the art of a historical period that helped shape the modern world. 

In college, I was often the only white girl in my group of bar-hopping friends of Asian descent (my friends were all Texans).  People would never fail to ask their ethnic identity, but no one ever asked mine.  I volunteered it, loudly, especially if drunk…  “Hey, I’m German-Czech!  Are we taking a census??”  Not necessarily helpful of me, but it was my first exposure to the obnoxious questions my friends had spent a lifetime dealing with and it pissed me off.

I hadn’t heard that term but it TOTALLY makes sense (as a description of what happens, not as if it’s okay).

There are a ton of people of Asian descent in Texas.  You’d think people
would be used to it by now and have gotten over the eternal foreigner
thing.  Maybe because the majority of the Asian population is still largely centered in Houston, which is hell and gone from the other major cities?

I don’t think anyone could have thought my friends were foreigners–that’s part of why it pissed me off.  We all grew up in Texas.  We dressed and walked and talked like Americans/Texans.  We did each others’ hair and make up before we left the apartment and swapped clothes.  There was nothing outside of physical attributes of race to prompt the question.  Occasionally it would come up and those times were not obnoxious.  You just don’t ask upon first meeting a person, “So, what’s your nationality?” in the absence of an accent, in my opinion.  Also, one of my friends was sick of it and she always answered, “American” or “Texan” and then got follow up questions. 
 

The US Census form has a limited list of races and “Asian” is the only term available to those whose ancestors are from that continent.  I can deal with “Asian” to describe a person’s race (it falls short for ethnicity, though).

I hope that the term “oriental” in the editorial was meant only to describe the inspiration for the clothing.

For what it’s worth, at one time “oriental” was supposed to be the polite term and that’s changed within the past 30 years.  I hope that people using the term are simply behind the times (those pulling on their eyes obvs have other issues).

“Oriental” does typically mean “other” from a western perspective.  For what it’s worth, there is an equal-and-opposite term, “occidental” to refer to westerners as “other” from the eastern perspective. 

One of these days, I’ll actually finish reading Edward Said…

You should totally do that and jump on the educational opportunity that presents itself when they ask what “occidental” means.  As helpfully, pedagogically, rudely or humorously as you feel in the mood for at that moment.  

That is a valid point. I haven’t been able to travel to Japan, so I was not aware that the landscape shown in the picture was similar to rural Japan. Though, if the editorial had featured a kilt-wearing bagpipist, I still don’t think it would have engendered the same criticism that this editorial did.